GTM Unfiltered

[00:00:00]

Judd Borakove: Guys, I am excited. We are at end of year.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, we are.

Judd Borakove: I don't know about you guys. I know everybody starts checking out around this time. I get excited. Don't know why. Maybe it's the downtime. We don't get me. Just kidding. but I love to get into some of the fun things that happen around this year. And for me, one of the big ones is There's a lot of festivities happening.

A lot of fun stuff, parties, things like that. I, I, I'm kind of curious. I'm gonna throw this one out and I love leading with this kind of thing. So you guys, you know, jump in as you want. I, I, I want to go holiday drink. Uh, favorite holiday drink. Are you in or you out? Are you an eggnog person, hot toddy? Are you non drinker?

What do you do instead? What are you [00:01:00] guys thinking? Like, Matt, I feel like you're, you're like king of festivities. Don't ask me why. I just get that feeling. What, what, what's your, you got a drink? Uh, are you in? You out? Or what, what?

Matt Amundson: So, I mean, like, uh, I'm not a big drinker, but my favorite cocktail is a Negroni, uh, which like it's red, it feels festive for, for Christmas. So that works. I will say at Census, we had our holiday party last week. Uh, we were at this awesome bar in, um, the Marina, which it. You know, I'm like in my 40s and live in the, uh, in the suburbs.

Like I don't spend time at awesome bars in the marina. So like it made me feel young and cool. Um, and they had this like big sort of group drink that was in a Flamingo and like a Flamingo is like kind of our internal mascot for our employees. So. It was awesome. Our, uh, our, our, our, our CTO was sort of like, he was carrying it around.

He was ladling out drinks from it. So like, that was a ton of fun. I think it just kind of, [00:02:00] um, you know, these are like the fun times where you get to, uh, unless you're one of the three of us, let our hair down and, uh, and, and have fun with, with, with your, uh, with your fellow teammates. So, um, you know, I love things like that, where it feels like communal, uh, maybe not super sanitary, but you know,

Craig Rosenberg: What was the drink

Matt Amundson: It was like, yeah, it was like this like punch, man. It was like, almost like, uh, like, um, what was the, what's the drink that you have in college where it's like everything, yeah, it's like jungle juice or something like that. It was, it was very sweet. I will say I only had about four ounces of it in a little cup, but, um, it sure made me feel merry and bright.

Judd Borakove: I hope you were one of the first ladles, not one of the last.

Matt Amundson: I think I was, yeah, cause like I saw him pull that thing off the bar and I was like, oh my god, yes, I did see it on the drink menu and I was like, I wonder if anybody's gonna order this and, uh, Anton, you're the man, you, you, you did, uh, and, uh, I think everybody had a fun time with that. So, normally I would [00:03:00] say Negroni, but if there's like a 32 or 44 ounce Flamingo that's available to you with punch that's more syrup than alcohol, just do it.

Judd Borakove: The go

Craig Rosenberg: have to, was it, does it have to be alcoholic?

Judd Borakove: Now,

Matt Amundson: No! Come on, you can, whatever.

Judd Borakove: all the family around, I feel like a lot of people need something to take the edge off, just saying, but you know, not

Matt Amundson: For sure.

Craig Rosenberg: We used to have a, at Tippit, which was a company, um, that was at, trying to think when, 2005, maybe to 2011, we used to have a Nog Off. So everyone would have to make an egg nog. Yeah. And, um, number one is the issue with the nog off is you can't actually drink that much eggnog and not because you would be, you know, hammered, it's the milk and the, you know, all the, it's so thick, you know, so like you had to time yourself if you're going to do the [00:04:00] contest, but I would enter, uh, like a Hawaiian or tropical nog every year, I'd come in like second, you know, um, and, uh, but I would never drink it. Because I can't, well, A, I don't like, I mean, I would sip the eggnog and I knew, I mean, I would do the contest very little pieces because I had to prove that mine was better than everyone's, but, uh, but I wouldn't drink it, you know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't be like, it's just such a novelty drink, it's not like you go, it's not like, right now, if I went to that bar in the marina, they'd be like, ooh, you gotta try our eggnog. You know, it's like, so eggnog is a traditional one, and I definitely have taken part in making like special recipes in it, but like, uh, yeah, I mean, that's actually my only sort of holiday comment on that. Like, as if. If I'm going to drink, like on the alcohol side, I'm just going to drink what I want to drink, like, and typically like a specialty drink will be like highly sugary, you [00:05:00] know?

I mean, no, I know alcohol sugar, but like, you know, it's hard, but I do take sips of my kids. My kids will do like at the coffee shop, like the gingerbread or the, uh, type of fun sort of mixed. non alcoholic drinks. And, uh, I do sip them and I realize how, how awesome they are. Um, but once again, this is like, I'm me, I'm just bringing it up as a topic for everyone else.

Cause, uh, you know, for me, it's like, those are sippables, not like, Oh my God, I can't wait to go have it. You know what I mean?

Matt Amundson: Yeah, for sure.

Judd Borakove: Oh yeah. Eggnog is, is loved and hated in my house. Uh, my wife, we, we, some people just seem to bring it to us and I don't drink it. Period. I'm a bourbon drinker, but I don't drink eggnog. And whenever it comes to the house every night, my wife seems to have some and she's like, this is so good. Please get rid of it.

And I'm like, we'll just pour it out the next night. This is so good. You please get rid of it. And it just keeps going on because she can't stop herself. [00:06:00] But it's like, to Craig's point, it's sippable. Like even when I've had it, I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't want to drink a lot of this. Um, so for me, the go to is any kind of bourbon always, but I will say around the holidays, hot toddies seem to find their way in.

Craig Rosenberg: That's a good one.

Judd Borakove: Right? Gets cold, sitting around fires, just kind of nice to have. But once again, to me, that's a sippable. Like, I, I don't, like, there's nothing I drink anymore. I'm like, oh, let's go, right? Like, I'm, I'm old, whatever. Obviously by the hair, whatever. But I, I, just don't think, uh, there's anything better than that kind of warm feeling around the fire, just hanging out with everybody and, and getting to enjoy it.

So, uh, guys, if you got great recipes, send them to us. We want to try them.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, fun fact,

Judd Borakove: on air.

Craig Rosenberg: there are holiday drinks, You don't really look forward to drinking them.

Matt Amundson: That's true.

Craig Rosenberg: Because I was,

Matt Amundson: Fun fact,

I've never had eggnog before, ever.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay, and see, here's an [00:07:00] example. I don't care. Like, I mean, if I cared, I would be like, No, no, I didn't mean it like that. I mean, if I cared, I'd be like, Oh, dude, you know how people I'll bring you some. I'm not

Matt Amundson: Yeah, yeah,

yeah,

yeah, yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: Like, I'll Another example is Yeah, as you were talking As you guys were talking, I'm like, um You know, the Buena Vista in San Francisco is famous for the Irish coffee.

But it's a tourist spot and there's a reason for that because you don't roll around going, Oh my God, I can't wait to have an Irish coffee. Right? Like you go to the Buena Vista so you can have their famous Irish coffee. Then you have it, you might have to whatever, but then you go, your deli chocolate factory, you know what I mean?

So it's like that, that was sort of this category of drinks, which are, you might make, you might advertise as part of something, but it's, you know, at the end of the day, I'm still gonna, you know, drink. You know what I wanted it, you know,

Matt Amundson: yeah.

Yeah,[00:08:00]

Judd Borakove: Cool. Well, hey, good, good start here. I, I want to roll into something, uh, that I think is very appropriate for end of year. Um, we've all been now a part of a, let's just call it wonderful 2023, uh, all the ups, all the downs. Uh, you know, at the end of the year, I always love to do the like. What surprised you?

What was the thing about 2023 that we're going to remember most? And what are you watching for 2024? I hate predictions. We're not doing those guys. We're doing like, what are we watching? Cause predictions don't work. Craig made me very aware. Don't worry. Uh, they never work. So, uh, guys, what, what do you think?

Like, what, what was 2023 takeaway? And what, what are you kind of like looking at for 2024?

Craig Rosenberg: By the way on the predictions don't work thing I need someone to do a research project to see how many people predicted that ChatGPT/OpenAI would change the world this year. The answer is like what? None, including them. [00:09:00] I'd have to go, that's just like, cause this was a monumental tech disruption year, right?

I mean, I know there's like, uh, well, actually there's nothing to say. I mean, like literally this is like a seminal moment on the tech side. Um, you know, with, with AI and. Particularly with, you know, the effects that it has on the go to market. There's just nothing like if we didn't, I mean, it'd be very typical to say, but if we didn't say it,

Matt Amundson: we'd be kidding ourselves. Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: be.

Like that would be ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, it's like it's changed the world, know, it's, um, so, but I think the most important thing we look forward to next year is, um, there's got to be massive adjustments to pipeline generation. And I think we tested things and felt the pain this year. Uh, I'm not, I don't believe that people have the answers for the same amount of pipeline that they used to [00:10:00] generate.

That is like the issue is that I think we'll come out from the bottom, right. And we'll do better, but like, you know, this is like a part of the expectations level set, which is, I'm not sure we can generate the amount of pipeline relative to the size of company that we were doing, let's say when it was just.

You know, we sort of mentioned that the free money era was ridiculous, pipeline generation and close rate. Um, but SaaS in general, there, there's been a long run of, you know, a, we figured out a digital marketing strategies where you could take content and create leads that, that is, um, less effective now, uh, two is we used to fill pipeline.

Gaps with outbound SDRs and those, their productivity has fallen and everyone blames, um, work from home and they're wrong. The, the changes in the buyer and their [00:11:00] reaction to outbound SDRing. And then, so that just is a cause for disruption on the pipeline generation side because we've got to solve it.

And just so everyone knows, the solution's not unicorn sales reps and getting sales reps to prospect. Do they need to prospect? Yeah, I mean, that should be part of your life. Like, you should always want, but it won't solve the problem. Um, so like an example, I think of, by the way, on the marketing side, Matt is you, right?

Like Matt, who for years was great at content demand driven demand gen is like a hundred percent demo. request slash like down the funnel for the effectuation of like all campaigns and anything they're doing. Um, that's a big change, right? Because there's still people are coming to me, God our conversion rates on content are really low.

They're getting less downloads and they're not working at all. It's like, okay, well then it's time to change. So that's what I'm looking for is we got to start to find new recipes that work.

Matt Amundson: [00:12:00] Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think I think all those points are valid. And I think as a marketer what that points me to is one. We have to reset our expectations on the amount of pipeline coverage we're able to create. If you look back historically over the course of the last 10 years, like, pipeline has come from a myriad of sources.

Whether it was a demo request, whether it was a content download, whether it was like, signing up for a meeting at an event, or even being incentivized by campaigns that are like, Hey, you know, Uh, we'll give you like, uh, we want to get you back on your feet. Here's a 100 gift card for a pair of Nikes to take a meeting with us.

I think the reality is, is for most companies right now, if you're unable to, as a marketer, bring somebody to your salesperson who has an active project, understands what you do, is, is, uh, has brand level awareness, uh, with your organization. The reps are going to struggle. It's going to eat up a bunch of [00:13:00] time.

It's going to require a heavier hand from like a solutions consultant or a sales architect, or however you sort of delineate those, those professionals within your business. And it's going to cause a lot of friction between, you know, the sales and marketing function. And it's going to lead to things like really low.

I think your best bet is instead of saying, Hey, I want to create five or six X pipeline. What you want to create is really high quality pipeline. And so narrowing the focus to, you know, how do I build programs actually drive people to, to, to, to request a demo and, and sort of identify active projects within their business that your solution is a good fit for.

Then, uh, then I think. You can get to a point where your win rates are going to go up. The reliance on like this massive amount of pipeline is going to come down. Um, which is. Like for me was one of the biggest surprises entering into a new business is like, I'm like, okay, cool. We're going to build all these different ways to put good prospects in front of the sales team.

The reality is, is when we [00:14:00] narrow the focus down to, to just those hand raisers, the sales team got more productive and they won more and they were happier and they were more confident. So I think, you know, uh, the, the, the days of like the. Hey, here's all the different ways that we can get people into the funnel.

Yeah, absolutely. Keep going with that. But in terms of when you drop that person into a sales cycle, you have to be, uh, very dispassionate about the way you think about. your history or how marketing's been run over the course of the last decade and you have to take a razor to some of that stuff and say, how do we put these people right in front of our salesperson when they're ready to buy and not be like, oh, salespeople can't do evangelical selling anymore.

Buyers don't want to be evangelically sold to anymore. They're just like, Hey, I'm here for a solution. I've got very small amount of budget. It may have taken them forever just to get approval to start an evaluation cycle. And I think we have to be cognizant of that. [00:15:00] That's not to say you shouldn't run big programs that bring a lot of people into the funnel.

You still should. Demand creation is still really, really important, but the demand capture, you got to think about it through a much narrower lens.

Judd Borakove: I love everything you just said, and I'm going to build on that for a second. I I feel like we always talk about best practices. And I feel like the last two to three years, 2023 I think being the worst, is the year of worst practices. Um, we have literally like, and I don't know if it's where people were brought in, if like early people in their careers kind of came in at 2020 and were indoctrinated into this everybody buys because there's so much money.

But it seems like the only thing anybody's doing right now is ads and SEO.

And I'm sorry, we know that's not working. Uh, everybody I've talked to is struggling dramatically. They can't fill the pipe. And, and to your point, Matt, what I really like is it's quality over quantity right now. Should we be bringing in.

A large amount of people at the top for sure, right? Like, and to your point, [00:16:00] we're gonna better understand where to bring them into a sales cycle. And I think that's the other thing too. I've seen too many companies who say they have a scoring model and you get in and there's no real scoring model.

Matt Amundson: yeah, or, or at the very least, they should be completely redefining what their scoring model looks like now.

Judd Borakove: yes, absolutely. Um, you know, it's, it seems a lot of people still, or went to up to this point, tools. Now they're moving away from it because nobody has a budget. And content, which was, you know, look, we, I still think really good content converts. The problem is there's not really good content. Um, personas aren't being specifically defined.

ICP work is not good. I'm gonna just call it trash. At least what I've seen. I'm sure there's people doing it really well. Love to see your ICP guys. Um, but, but honestly, I think it's getting back to the basics. Uh, so for me, the year, what I'm watching is, are people going to kind of re establish their [00:17:00] basics?

You know, I always go to the sports method, you know, the sports side of things, and I like to say, all the greats had the basics in spades. I feel like that is something that people have really lost in the last bit of time. So I think we're going to see a shift. And then I think the motion, in my opinion, that I'm watching in the hottest on is is obvious.

I know everybody knows already before I say it, but it's partner. Um, I believe there's a lot there that has not been explored, uh, or understood. I think that there's a lot of, at least from my experience currently, The companies that I'm seeing who have a partner program, they're not mature. Um, and then they're trying to layer on these, like, near Nearbound and things like this that are extensions of their partner program.

Um, so 2024, to me, it's the year of partner. That's how I'm calling it, in my opinion. That's what I'm watching. Um, not a prediction, guys. Just watching. Um, and, uh, and I think that There's going to be some, some monumental movement, um, some shifts in the way that [00:18:00] CROs are looking at the world because Craig, to your point too, and, and yours, Matt, it's, it's not working, right?

The, the salespeople are not closing at the same rates. The activity isn't happening at the same rate. The, the, the SDR, ADR, BDRs are not able to get meetings the way they did. They're going to be looking. And I think that this is one of those things they can add to the repertoire to spin up as a true motion that is going to move the needle in 2024.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay, I just want to say one thing to all of us, which is, it's easy for us to say quality, okay, but like, it's hard. Like, how you get there is, I'm still, that's the most important, like, that would be just like, A podcast to be like, well, you got to get better quality, you know? And it's like, what I think we should look for is like Matt's talking about, there's this new demand creation funnel at the top using things like LinkedIn or whatever that might be.

And looking for those, we got to get in the weeds a little bit to get to the point where you [00:19:00] can even deliver quality. Um, it's really important. And I think when we think about looking at next year, I think that's really important. I mean, I, I don't know that I have the solution for it either, at least, and so, it sounds like Matt's on to something good, so we should probably dig in at some point on some of the tactical things you're doing.

Less so at the bottom, more so at the top.

Matt Amundson: It's all yeah, it is more so at the top for sure I think the thing is is like the funnel is just very narrow right now And you have to be comfortable with that as a marketer Which is to say like a lot of the things that you would have pushed forward to the sales team Because they sort of smell like a deal.

They just don't anymore So you have to be a little bit more ruthless about what you let through And you have to you have to I think If I could give marketers a good bit of advice, it's like, you should feel comfortable missing your pipeline number if what you're delivering is a bookings number. Okay, because I think it's going to take a long while for [00:20:00] people to get comfortable with the fact that 6x, 5x pipeline is no longer really possible.

But if you, if you reorient your brain around, instead of having this massive amount of volume, I want to focus on things that are really good. And maybe I can drive, I can help our sales team drive the win rate up. Then there's going to be a pressure release on the amount of pipeline that needs to be created.

And that is a very different way of thinking. And if you said, Hey, what I really, if I could drive 2x pipeline, but it was super qualified and it looked like it might close. You would change your marketing mix and I think people have to start changing their marketing mix to get in line with something closer to 2.5-3x of pipeline

Judd Borakove: Yeah, I love everything you just said. Um, I think that there is like, if we can get a reshift, cause I think one of the big challenges with that whole statement is CROs have to get their head around. It's not a [00:21:00] volume game right now.

Matt Amundson: Mm hmm.

Judd Borakove: And to make that shift is difficult. I'm not going to call this like you just needed it.

No, that is difficult. Like, Hey, I've done this. I built my career on this and now you're telling me we need to make a big shift. That's going to be difficult for people to kind of swallow. Um, so I am curious how long this takes and how well CROs, CMOs actually unite to really solve the problem together.

I'm hoping because of this problem, it creates that need for unity within the go to market. Uh, function,

Matt Amundson: Yeah. I'll tell I'll tell you one thing that's been

Craig Rosenberg: my prediction is

that won't happen. I know

Judd Borakove: Good prediction. I'm gonna, yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: That no, you said you hope

Judd Borakove: I did say hope.

Craig Rosenberg: and that's it's always been hope, you know, it's so hard so

hard.

Matt Amundson: I think the one thing that's helped me, and I've always looked at what happens to opportunities, like does an opportunity get created and does it go to Closed Won I've spent a lot more time thinking [00:22:00] about stage progression in the last six months than I think I have in the previous six years of my career, which is what are the programs that are going from, you know, meeting to opportunity, but like opportunity to Qualification, qualification to validation and trying to get a sense of what are the programs that are actually driving people all the way through in a, in sort of a healthy conversion across each one of the stages of selling, instead of just, Hey, we created an opportunity and it got closed Won 60 days later, 90 days later, 180 days later, whatever the length of your sales cycle is.

I am, I'm spending way more time looking at stage progression than I have in forever.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, that's a good one

Judd Borakove: Yeah. So guys, if you want to just go deep on any of these things in the future, and I'm talking to our audience here, you know, let us know what you, you want to hear more about. We, we want to answer those questions. You know, send in questions. Send in where you guys want us to dig deeper. We'd love to do it.

Uh, [00:23:00] we're gonna Transition here in a second. Craig's got an amazing interview coming up. I'm super stoked for it. And so we're gonna do that. But please guys, one, happy holidays. Thank you guys for tuning in. We were, this has been a labor of love for us and we're so happy that you guys are a part of it and to, you know, have a wonderful year.

Let's all recharge and come back and kill it and make some of these things we're watching really happen. So for me, and I know you guys, uh, we love you. Thank you guys as usual. And, uh, Craig, we're gonna turn it over to you.

Matt Amundson: Happy Holidays, everyone.

Craig Rosenberg: Magnar

​

Craig Rosenberg: better. Everyone who's watching. Yes, this is a Bruce Willis in the air conditioning duct scene in Die Hard in a painting. I'm not sure who did the painting, but it just I had to have it.

Anna Baird: And Die Hard in, in celebration of the holiday season because it is one of the top holiday movies. So, there you

go.

Craig Rosenberg: actually, let's just start with that So, do you classify [00:24:00] Die Hard as a Christmas movie or not?

Anna Baird: I, I do, I do. I'm sorry, I do.

Craig Rosenberg: That's okay. Actually, I, you know, I've been trying to answer that for a long time. And, I uh, I have gone back and forth, but now I'm telling everyone that Die Hard is a Christmas movie, so that, uh, this time of year, everyone should watch it at least once. And that's, so

that's my new policy.

Anna Baird: I'm

watching tonight,

I think. No, I am. It's like, literally, it's been on my list. I think I'm doing it tonight.

Craig Rosenberg: That's

awesome. Alright, so everyone, um, I'd, um, I'd like to make sure that I can properly introduce My guest today because, um, honestly, like, I've been excited to talk to you. I haven't talked to you in a long time and like, um, the, the amount of energy and the, actually, here's what I'd describe. That your knowledge [00:25:00] delivered with your energy is like the perfect combination for any type of conversation, recorded or not, by the way.

So everyone, like, um, the, today's guest, we, uh, years of experience in the executive suite from President, CFO, COO. I knew her. when she was leading the wildly successful run that outreach had. So a lot of our listeners, of course, know, uh, the, uh, famed sales engagement application platform that outreach was.

And Anna was, um, you know, the COO, CRO, uh, face of the franchise. Um, part of that amazing run there and that's where I really got to, to know Anna. We probably had a million conversations recorded and not recorded over that time and that's where I really got to know her and the, and the intellectual energy she brings.

I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm going to find the high level headline on this. [00:26:00] And now, uh, and now you're a board member, you're an operating partner at Madrona, so you're, um, you know, sharing that incredible executive experience that you have with others. And we hope that you can do that today with your intellectual energy.

But folks, today's guest is Anna Baird, and it's an honor to have you on the show. Thank you for coming on.

Anna Baird: just had knee surgery, so we'll see how the energy goes. If I wiggle in my seat, it's because my knee hurts. So, hang tight!

Craig Rosenberg: Hey man, if I wiggle in this seat, it's It's very normal for me to wiggle in the seat, so I think we'll be in good shape. Um, how was my

intro?

Anna Baird: It was awesome. Thank you. Yes. No, it was amazing. It was amazing. As always. You know, I feel like I'm one of those weird people who have like been a CFO, I was a partner at KPMG. I helped take Google public. It's been a, it's been a wild career, honestly.

Craig Rosenberg: but it is, you know, [00:27:00] and probably you're, you're, um, you know, among the many ways that you move the needle on the revenue side during your time at outreach, the CFO experience was huge and probably Huge right now, right? Because of, you know, all the different things that are happening, but but but so what I'd like to do Is just to kick us off is just to make sure that we can surprise the audience with with an insight from you I like to ask like what is it today that the market thinks that they're doing right or or they think is normal That they're wrong about and what should they be doing?

That's how I like to lead just to find that sort of insight that People aren't thinking about and we can surprise them with. What would you say to that?

Anna Baird: Well, I will see how surprising this is. I think it's what's been fun for me being a board member now and also working with a lot of C suite executives because of my role at Madrona and other things that I'm doing is I get to see a lot of different people. C [00:28:00] level executives, especially CEOs, and, and operate through these last, you know, 18 months or so of kind of some challenging times.

And you'd think I, what I'm going to say shouldn't be surprising, but I'm just telling you, in fact, it is because they're not doing it. And, and they're often doing the opposite of this, which is when the market is hard, you need to have maniacal focus on the pain you solve for your customers. Because if you aren't solving a pain that they're willing to pay for, then you're not going to do well in this market, right?

I mean, it's like, if you're a nice to have, you're going to have a problem. If you are truly solving a pain, but you're spending a bunch of time on, you know, other product tangents and other things because you are hoping to figure out how to make, you know, more money or whatever. You've got to sit back and take a look at Why do we exist as a company? Because there's only one reason you exist. You solve something for your customers, right? And whether that's a new fun thing that you can do, or it's a pain that helps them with efficiency or revenue, you've got [00:29:00] to double down on that and say, are we just maniacal on how we're messaging that, on talking about the challenges we solve for our customers, and how we're investing in product to continue to do that.

And what I have seen over the last 18 months is people get scared and change strategy every quarter and not have the opposite of maniacal focus. And it's causing them a lot of challenges then in their own businesses because they can't get the outcomes that they're, they're honestly trying to change the strategy to get to an outcome and it's having the opposite effect.

Right. So

that's probably the

big thing.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, no, that's actually You're right. The way you said it. It shouldn't be surprising, but it is. But, but, do you think that I'm trying to Because I've seen the strategy changes out of Panic is like, yes, happening. But do you, and is part of that though, so the maniacal focus that you talked about it, you said that there's a pain in the [00:30:00] market that we solve for and we're gonna quadruple, triple down our focus on, so is part 'cause there's the go to market strategy or is that the same, like they're, are they moving away from their core pain that they're solving and they're sort of.

Uh, panicking in the go to market side, or it's like, like the maniacal focus to me seems like it would even if you did make alterations to your go to market, it would still be ultimately serving against that maniacal focus against the pain that you're solving for folks. Um, so like, yeah, when you talk about maniacal focus, like, give us the scope of that.

Like, where, where does that, you know, what should that look like?

Anna Baird: no, and I think it's a, it's a great question. And there's a, there's a lot of, of nuances that come into the play that we'll hit on some of that in a second as well, because I think there's the, okay, so what pain do you solve? Why does your company exist? And people forget that sometimes. They forget why you became a company in the first place.

And, and then you start trying to create all [00:31:00] these things that you think the market wants. And what happened, I think, in this last 18 months, especially, is people had a lot of money going into this 18 months, especially in the startup world, right? And I say start, I start, startup being a broad term from series, you know, C plus who are product market fit, had their stuff together, right?

We're doing well, raised lots of money. And when you raise lots of money, I think you start experimenting, right? Taking risks. Hey, I'm going to try this or I'm going to try that. And you also, honestly, get super confident. in who you are and your understanding of what you think the market wants. Because you started investing in R& D and you started investing in go to market messaging and you started investing in some other things and maybe you did an acquisition or you're trying some new product lines.

And I think what happened is everybody started to do that and then this market hit and they're like, okay, we're going to go double down on that. We're going to go double down on all these things we were trying. Instead of saying, hey, hold on, like what in this, if I was going to do three things this year that made a difference for our customers.

To drive expansion and [00:32:00] retention, um, and acquisition of new customers obviously would be helpful too, is what are those three things? And what happened is everybody was doing seven other things that were, you know, periphery, tangents, new ideas. And they kept investing in those or trying even more of those things versus taking a step back and going, If I could only do three things that really impacted 80 percent of my customers, you know, they would go, Oh my gosh, yes, I'd expand.

I'd give you money if you did that. Are we doing those things? Is that where we're using our money instead of burning it on a lot of other stuff? Which then causes more panic, which is a self fulfilling prophecy, right? You're burning more cash, you start panicking more, you start trying to do new things with less people, less money,

and then we wonder why we're not successful, right?

So I think that that's, that's what I was saying. Does that make sense? Does that help?

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Total sense. I love the three things. So, um, Robert Koehler, if you're listening to the show, the rule of three is in play with Anna here. Um, I think [00:33:00] that's also a I actually, you know, as you were talking, I got to tell you, I just had to run an errand and there was a truck in the parking lot. I meant to take a picture of it.

I wanted to because, you know, most landscapers or, you know, landscape maintenance folks or whatever will just say so and so landscape. And then if they have a web page or a cart, they list off a million things, right? Because they don't, they don't want, you know, they want his wife. This guy said, You know, so and so landscaping, landscape management for property managers.

I was like, dude, you, that's so simple, but he has his ideal customer profile that he is serving. He states it, he exists for them, and I was like, gosh, you know, what a very simple, yet amazing thing. Just extremely targeted from, you know, a type of truck we see every day, you know? And so anyway, as you were talking, I'm like, oh my god, like,

Anna Baird: I love that.

Craig Rosenberg: in [00:34:00] effect, yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: The, uh, yeah, for sure. Actually, you know what's interesting that you said there was in, in, uh, I'm just going to even pull it out of context. What the market wants or your market wants.

Anna Baird: Well, and it may have changed, which is the other

Craig Rosenberg: yes, that,

Anna Baird: this is the, I said this all the time, you know, as a go to market leader, you see it, but also as a product leader, you see it as CEOs, obviously it's like, you can have a strategy and it's like, why is our strategy changing mid year? Well, our strategy changes for multiple reasons, but it can be because, you know, our product needed to change.

There's something that it needed to evolve, competition came into play, so you needed to evolve, but the market also can change what it wants. And I saw this within six months, sometimes the market totally pivoting and saying, this is critical for us. It was something that wasn't even in table stakes six months before.

And when the market changes like it has in the last 18 months, that's absolutely true, right? I mean, you're It's like, are the customers having the same pain? Do they still want from you the same thing they wanted six months [00:35:00] ago? Because you better go figure that out. And it's funny, I was talking to a company that, that, um, had let go of their CRO, which is pretty common these

days.

And it's like, there's more

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. Gee, which one was that

Anna Baird: No, I was talking to somebody in their portfolio, and it was like, oh, we have like half of our companies have a CRO opening. I was like, yeah, really? Surprise, surprise. So, but I was talking to them, and they were saying, Oh, you know, as a, one of their other leaders wanted to be a CRO and I said, well, talk to me about how you're looking at this, this role.

And they said, well, you know, it's great. You just really focus on the management team and strategy and you don't meet with customers anymore. I was like, say what? It's like, you don't meet with customers anymore. I was like, yeah, our CRO, my last couple of CROs didn't meet with customers anymore. They're They're running the business.

I'm like. How can you run a business, I don't care what C level title you have, and not meet with customers? Because that is the only reason you exist. It's the only reason you have a job as an executive. And as a as a leader, period, for anybody in the company, the only reason they have a job is because we have [00:36:00] customers that we're servicing.

So Not going out and doing a check in the marketplace on a regular basis. And whether you're head of product, you're the CEO, you are the CFO, you are the CRO, head of marketing, obviously, you're out there touching base with customers all the time. To make sure, are we on track? Is our strategy still aligned with what they need from us?

Because there is nothing more important than that.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, what an easy, I mean, not, well it's not easy because not everyone does it, but it's actually pretty simple. So like if you were So we have to know what the market wants. To do that, we should be, everyone should be talking to customers. Um, and do you bring everything? Because this, you know, what's unique about you too, is if you think about it, like the, the raised up through the revenue side CRO, um, you know, they actually, They're kind of single-minded in running that team.

Like they don't, [00:37:00] they c the CFO's actually conspiring against, there's a lot. I, I don't want to be too, but, but there, there's an, yeah, the adversary, but you are actually in a, you, you were, uh, essentially a, uh, executive level. You were an executive across the board. You knew the CFO's point of view, the COO's point of view, CR as as you were leading revenue.

And like the thing I, I, I'm, I'm sort of. Uh, trying to gather here is like, so we understand the customer, but you also understand the constraints of the organization at being who you were in the, the constraints of the organization to deliver on that, the pain of product who is like, um, getting a million different signals from the sales team on things that they should build or not.

What are your, like, thoughts or best practices on managing the customer feedback and actually producing, whether it's from a product perspective, a marketing perspective, you know, whatever those things are, how do you know when to make your move? And, [00:38:00] um, is it, there's enough votes to do that? You've heard it enough?

Or is it, you know, how should we think about that as an organization?

Anna Baird: We used to have a fun game we played between the engineering product team and me and my leadership where it's like, I'm going to give you 10 and at the beginning of the year, you get to place your bets on where you want that 10 spent, right? And it's, it's, it's back to your, you know, what is your one list, your top 10 list?

What is the list that says, if I can do nothing else? These are the five things that moved the needle this year, the three things or the whatever, and prioritized in order. If we have to drop one, we're going to drop the one at the bottom. And we revisit, so we do it when we're budgeting. So say it's, you know, comes fall, August, September, you know, people are doing their budgets for the next year, and they're getting all their stuff ready and engineering and product are going through their whole, hey, you know, what are we, where are we going to invest and what are we building?

And that's a team agreement, right? And it's, and it's based on all of us. It's product, you know, go to market, everyone going into the marketplace, having talked to customers, coming [00:39:00] back and saying, if we invest in one thing that moved the needle, what would it be? Right? And, and obviously that, that top five list really.

And to say, and then when does it need to be delivered and how much revenue does it have to attribute for the year? You can't do a forecast unless you do that exercise, right? And then you have to revisit it every quarter and sometimes more often to say, are we still on track? Is that still the right play for us?

Because some of these plays take a year to build, right, or nine months or six months or whatever, depending on where you are in the technology journey. And so it's how are we making sure that if we have to cut as a team, we are saying these are the things that would go first, because I'm not going to give up this.

And we got pretty maniacal about saying this is my number one priority. If you do nothing else but this, and on my whole team, and I said you aren't going to hear anything different from the rest of the go to market team. We are all aligned. This is our list. You don't have to ask anybody. You don't have to check with anybody else.

And you tell us if you disagree based on obviously the customer feedback you've gotten. And then we'll, we'll settle it out. [00:40:00] And it really made everybody's job so much easier. And we just revisited every quarter as a leadership team. Product and go to market would obviously get together and marketing would be in that too.

And, and, and then obviously we'd, we'd do it with a broader executive team as well. But it's going, here's where we're investing. Here's what we said we were going to focus on. Yes, we're still on track. Yes, we're still on track. Yes, that is still my number one.

Craig Rosenberg: * *There's a, there's a few founders that I, um, I'm working with who will love the three things. So the, but the, the three I'm gonna keep focusing on the three.

So from a go to market perspective too, would that be like you're recommending like because that gets We go all over. Okay, so

Anna Baird: yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, it's again, you know, one thing we used to do and I honestly think it was probably one of the Best things that we did. Um, and this was, this was an outreach. We started to put in, you know, as you're growing, especially as you're growing as fast as we were, there's a lot happening in the organization, right?

The market is changing. Your company is changing. [00:41:00] You know, you're, you're trying to get so many things done. You're trying to build a foundation to scale because that's what you have to be able to do to get to efficiency. You have to build the foundations that scale. I used to have my go to market goals.

One was based on growth levers and levers for scale and efficiency. We have those two categories, and that's how we did our, we called them OSMs, Objective Strategies and Measures. And so every year we'd set up our OSMs on those two categories, and each of my teams had objective strategies and measures that they were focusing on.

And what we did, though, that I really think helped us up level that, because you start getting, obviously, as you get into every team, and they're focusing on the top three things, how do they align back to goals, etc. But for the board, I would put together each quarter, I'd say, here's the foundational programs that we've put together.

in our, you know, pre and post sale organization in our sales organization. Here's programs we put in place. To do X. They're, you know, we hired this leader to build value engineering. We are putting in this program [00:42:00] to increase win rate. We are putting in this program to increase our retention rates. And so we would show all the programs and people.

That was pretty much those two categories. Sometimes there was tech, so it could be technology we invested in as well. But it was, it was people and programs and technology. And I had one sheet. For each team and we did six quarters rolling and we said, here's the programs we put in place in Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, obviously kept it rolling and below all those programs in the quarter, we would put all of our metrics.

What are our gross and net retention? What was our sales win rate? What was, we would put all of the metrics that were outputs to say, are those programs over time moving those metrics? And they did. Right? And so we'd say, we invested in this and here's how we're showing you what it did. Because if you're investing and you don't have those outcomes then we're not investing, right?

We've got to stop and take a look and say, okay, where do we move the resources? But it helps you stay focused on what are the things that are moving the needle and are those programs, which all align back to what were the top goals of the go to market team, were [00:43:00] they creating outputs? And we show that to the board every quarter, and that's what my leaders talk to in the board meetings.

It's like, let's go through this slide. Here you go. Here's what we did. Here's where we're at. Questions, right? And it was probably one of the most effective communication tools that I used to, you know, keep us all, and it honestly helped us keep ourselves aligned, right? Just at a higher level, taking it up a notch.

Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: you. So I know I mentioned a guy you don't even know, my, Robert Kaler, this guy I work with. He's gonna, like, eat this podcast up, because he said three things, he always has a rule of three. Number two is he keeps, like, saying, Craig, these, these, these people, we don't need to build a 70 page deck.

We need one piece of paper. And like, well, not piece of paper, but you know what I mean, like, one page. And it's like, oh my gosh, I, I just love the simplicity of that.

Anna Baird: It's hard

to do, uh, but it was, it was really an exercise that, that helped us translate also when you're talking to investors, board members, et cetera, how do you translate back what's going on and what's [00:44:00] working and what's not? And you know, how do we think about that? So I think it was just a super effective way to get that simplicity in play.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, for sure. So I'm gonna take all these things to ask you. By the way, this is classic. I'm gonna, this is, everyone's gonna think this is great. This is so us. I honestly did not necessarily plan on talking about this and I'm, I was so, I'm so happy with the first part of this podcast because, uh, very practical, really important, really timely.

So it's a beautiful thing. And I want to take I'm going to say like a couple words that you brought up and then I'm going to ask you a question. So one is, once again I'm going to bring up what the market wants, uh, why you exist, um, maniacal focus, um, and actually I'm going to stop there. So what's happening in the sales tech market right now?

As an alumni. And now, no, now you can take a step back like me. I'm in the same, I get to take a step back and take an objective look. So now that, now [00:45:00] that you're, I threw in those words because I kept going, Oh, this is going to be interesting. Uh, because we still have hundreds of vendors out there. Uh, and, uh, I know I said hundreds and some people will say thousands, but let's just, for the sake of in my purview, hundreds.

So what, what, what's happening right now? We're, we're. Like,

Anna Baird: It's, it's fascinating.

Yeah, yeah, I know. When I come from, I was a partner at KPMG in consulting, and so I use my consulting hat as I take a step back and go, What's going on here? Um, and actually just did a presentation for Madrona on this, a team of us did, um, including Lauren, who was the ex CRO from DocuSign, so it was fun to

say, you know, what is this, what do the next five years look like?

And it was super fun. But here's what I will say, and obviously I was inside, I see what's happening at the other companies that were in the ecosystem. Sales tech, and it's like any tech, and I've said this for a long time, anytime you bring technology to a new segment, sector, role, you get this proliferation of all these little niche tools that solve a pain, a piece of the [00:46:00] pain.

And because there's, and if you think about the go to market organizations and obviously sales in particular, there's been nothing, like forever, decades, there was nothing. You had a CRM system and that was it. And then all of a sudden you started to get These pieces of tools are like, okay, help us SDRs coordinate calls, um, then, you know, help you hear calls.

Uh, nobody just wants to, you know, schedule a call and nobody just wants to hear a call. They want to understand how do they make their forecast, right? That's the goal. There's the only goal. Is everybody is being asked, are you going to make your forecast and where is it going to land and are we going to do it?

The same way for the next, you know, bajillion quarters. And so the question that needs to be answered is that, is like, am I on track with my forecast, do I have pipeline for the next forecaster they need, or is that pipeline in the right stage to convert when it needs to convert? And, you know, are we, you know, in, in the right conversations with our customers across retention and, and obviously growth levers. And so everybody was starting to focus as these niche pieces of technology started turning into the platforms, um, and I'll just use that broadly across some of the major players. [00:47:00] You saw them try to pull all these pieces of, of niche pieces of technology together to answer that ultimate question, you know, am I going to meet my forecast?

Because that's all that our customers are asking us at outreach, right? It's any, and anything I heard, whether I talk to a CFO, a CIO, or CROs, how do I consolidate the tech.

Too much tech. Tell me how I can consolidate this tech. That, that cry hasn't gotten less loud since I was, you know, in the role I was over a year ago.

So, um, especially in this market. So that was the cry. And then unfortunately for everybody, honestly, the market downtrend hit. As these companies were starting to really invest in how do we pull all that together. And then what happened was then they needed to lay off people. And then they are scrambling, like we were just talking about a little bit ago, on what's the strategy that you get through this market, and how do you re accelerate growth, and how do you do all these things.

And the challenge that I think everybody has right now, and I say that across every niche [00:48:00] player and every big player, um, in this market, is that You need another level of investment to get it to that ultimate nirvana of how do you, the pieces are there, the DNA is absolutely there, and some of them are better than others, but there is no one who has stitched it all together, and there was a level of investment that was going to be required, and the problem is, All those people pull back on investments because of the market, right?

And, and trying to get to profitability. So all of them were told the same thing. All the biggest players, right, were told you've got to get to profitability faster, which meant they had to pull back on investment. This is very complex technology. I mean, you're talking about. Listening to calls and hearing, um, you know, sentiment and emails and in meetings and trying to translate that all back to where are we in the, you know, cycle with the customer journey and how is that impacting forecast?

All the pieces are there, but we didn't, Not all, most of the pieces are there to really start to put some [00:49:00] foundationally amazing things together, except it was at the point where another big level of investment was needed. So what I think is going to have to happen is consolidation, um, purchased by big players to make that next level of investment, right?

You've got to have, none of them are there yet. Um, there's some good technology and a lot of these companies, but none of them are there yet. And the last thing, and I said this at Madrona. Last thing anybody should be investing in is any other niche technology here, right? Nobody needs another niche piece of software that, you know, does something great with a phone call or does something great with an email.

It is, they, what every company needs is, is this consolidation of all of this tech into something that truly helps them get visibility and understand what's happening in their customers and the journey that they're on. So, that's what has to happen. And so that's going to happen with consolidation, acquisition, and I think that'll start happening in My guess is mid to late 24, um, as all these companies are getting tighter on money.

They, the, the challenge was so many [00:50:00] people have raised so much money before the market hit, they've been using that to try all these different strategies and race around, and they're, they're burning through it and not making progress, or some are starting to, you know, pull some things together. But it's still a lot of investment, I think, to really get the technology to where it needs to be, because this is complex, and you're integrating with multiple systems, you're using, and obviously now with AI, how, you know, can we more efficiently, you know, incorporate that in.

So I think that that is the next stage. There's, everybody's sort of stalled in the last 18 months, and to re energize this and take it to where it needs to be is another level of investment.

Craig Rosenberg: Isn't that funny? With like three minutes left, I was holding back on saying AI and then you got it in there at the buzzer. You know, as you, by the way, that is so, you know, in my reflections on the sales tech market, I'll just give you a couple of my takes.

Anna Baird: I'd love

Craig Rosenberg: To me right now, consolidation is actually [00:51:00] elimination.

Anna Baird: Mm

Craig Rosenberg: Um, and I don't blame the CRO, the CRO, I mean, the, the, the, you know, so there's a difference, right? Like, the niche player roll up. Uh, the, the issue I think as we, as the, as the market sorts itself out is, there was a lot of niche players that really were only 30 million dollar companies. And, and, you know, I know you, you wouldn't be interested in buying something that gets you 30, right?

You'd want something that, uh, moves big swings. So one, we did have a lot of sort of niche players that are really mom and pop type software companies. And that's fine, by the way. Uh, but like Many of them didn't add enough value and, um, and so, like, that part is the elimination part. I think, as the, the sort of tight, the, you know, soon to be titans of the industry as you described, you know, as you were talking about them and having them have to broaden their [00:52:00] platform, I think one of the things that is difficult now is, like, had things stayed the same, uh, then yeah, you would roll up.

Places where there's big lifts, right? So like, you know, forecasting was a big lift, right? It's a big lift. Everyone's wants to play in that game. Uh, but then AI this year, like it's not one of those term, like people always want to bait me into like. bashing it. And actually that's so ridiculous. The, the, this year was the year in particularly, like, it was like the one year where a massive big disruption just dropped into the market that will complicate development plans for the big folks, because they're going to, they're not going to want to buy legacy niche because they're going to know better.

They're all smart, as you know. And I mean, you, you know, is in that they're going to be like, well, if we, We have to incorporate AI, Gen AI, you know, whatever it is, whatever direction. You want to take [00:53:00] here, uh, faster and better because that's where the threats will come from the bottom and the sides is if you're not there.

So like, you know, as you're talking about 2024 and the reinvestment, it's really interesting. That might actually hamper some of the, like, some of the consolidation of the sales tech market will likely be a lot of folks sort of falling off. Either staying small and staying alive for a while, or if they're venture, they might have to fall off the map a bit.

Because. If you're, you know, uh, outreach where you were, they're not gonna take in anything that's not gonna get them to the AI nirvana that they're, you know, that these guys want to go to. That's interesting, right on your 2024 with the AI, the AI bomb.

Anna Baird: And it's true. And it's another complication. I think you're right on the, on top of the market disrupting, the, the technology started disrupting too, right? And all of that happening at the same time was pretty

insane. And so it creates this incredibly unique dynamic in the ecosystem today that probably has never existed before all at the [00:54:00] same time like this.

With a major disruption from a technology, you know, potential. And it's funny, I used to say this all the time. People are like, oh, why isn't Salesforce or Microsoft build what you guys have built? And I said, think about the platform they were built on. It's decades old. They can't reinvest at their stage and build this.

Well, that same now true for the veterans in the industry that we're talking about. Where if they can't reinvest their old, like, now their old technology too. And that's the other challenge here, right? What I

said became true of myself,

right? And so, so you're, you have to also look at it from that angle.

And that's a card that's still playing through, right? That is going to be fascinating to see how they're able to react to retool. Um, because there's technology that they spent a lot of money building that is way easier now with AI. So, do you retool and make that piece more efficient and go spend the money somewhere, you know, where, how do you utilize the funds that you have and can [00:55:00] you rebuild the platform in a way that takes truly advantage of this and not just saying you have AI.

Truly takes advantage of it in a way that starts, you know, changing the game on, on the way your tech works. So,

Craig Rosenberg: Disrupting the disruptors. The disruption

Anna Baird: Yep. No,

it is. No, it's insane. And, and really just a point in time in history that I think is, you know, is, is going to change the trajectory of this space.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. I totally, I mean, it's like, think about all the things that came together. It's like a sonic boom. Like, it's like the AI, the AI just. I mean, like, I, I was with, uh, I keep bringing him up, but there's an analyst named Esteban Kolsky. I don't know if you ever look at his stuff and read him, but he's, like, amazing.

He's just, he's a combination of pissed off for greatness and brilliance. And so, like, he's a, and, you know, he has this thing, he hates predictions, right? He, he calls them, uh, I think the, the, the charlatans of platitudes. [00:56:00] And, uh, I confronted him on it, and he's like, Craig, let me ask you this. Go back and look and see how many of them talked about, uh, generative AI being the, the, the effect that it was going to have this year.

I'm like, oh my God, that's so true. And also then I added it because it's like the sales tech market had the buyer disruption. So from zero interest rates to massive ones and a complete clamp down. To the sales teams losing people left and right, those things go together. But that, I was like, Oh my gosh, the, these amazing sort of retention rates that many of our, our, uh, uh, our, our success stories in sales tech are going to take a hit just by virtue of the fact that sales team went from 1, 800, um, or even 500 or worse.

And then, uh, so you had the, the buying market changed, the AI bomb dropped. And they were already in a period of like, all those effects on them, they were already trying [00:57:00] to sort out how the heck are we going to, uh, you know, build to dominate. And it's like an incredible just confluence of things at one time in that market.

It's really, it's going to be fun to watch now that we can sit on the sidelines and watch for a while.

Anna Baird: Yeah, no, I don't want to sit in it, but I will sit over here because it was painful getting to where we got, you know, and you know, from 25 to 250 million in a good market. I, this is, this is insane. And it's, and to your point, and I say this all the time, and I don't disagree with Esteban, I like him already, is Everything everyone has said about the market over the last two years keeps being wrong, right?

And, and it's because of this sonic bomb that you've just talked about that no one has ever lived through. I mean, we were just finishing a pandemic and then you had this market change and the AI drop and the investment in, especially in this go to market space on where the technology needed to go. And so I don't know how this is going to play through.

I just know it's going to change from where it is today and probably [00:58:00] drastically by year end. And, and we'll see. See who's on, you know, who's in the game as, as we get over the next 12 months is going to be sitting on the sidelines. I'm going to be the Monday morning quarterback, but

Craig Rosenberg: I

know. We get to talk about it with no, there's literally no, no harm, no foul on us now. We can just say what we want. And if it's wrong, it's no big deal for you. You know, for them, it's like a multi million dollar

error if they're wrong.

Anna Baird: painful,

And, and so

you see why the CEOs are freaking out, right? I mean, that all that when you talk about that set of facts, it totally makes sense why they're grasping in a lot of straws and not able to do the maniacal focus because, you know, this is a crazy cycle and they're in the middle of it, right?

So.

Craig Rosenberg: And things are changing so fast. Okay. But actually let's do this on our last one along those topics. Actually, I think the, the question I would ask you. Who is, is uh, related to sales tech, so how should the market handle their sales tech [00:59:00] investment right now? What would you recommend to them? Um, like, keep going, double down, take an audit, make sure you're getting value.

I don't know, you know, like

Anna Baird: Well, I'll always take an audit and make sure you're getting value, and if somebody hasn't done that at this point, they're, you know, I

Craig Rosenberg: CFO, yeah, I was going to

Anna Baird: I was like, CFO was asking, CFO was

asking that question a year and a half ago. So, um, you know, I think it's obviously doubling down on, on the ROI.

I do still see, though, it's, and it's part of this grasping at straws thing. I'm just going to buy some tech to help solve this problem. And then spending no time implementing training and holding accountability for using it. So same old, same old, same old, right? I mean, that's always the challenge. It's like you buy something, you have to change your processes to utilize that technology as part of the process to make sure you're getting the bang for the buck.

And so many still do that, right? So many, I mean, even like literally right now, it's like. Stop buying things if you don't know how you're going to use it or don't have the team to train and hold accountability for making sure everybody [01:00:00] understands how to get the benefit. Don't. Just don't buy it. I, I, that's, that's not a good move.

So I think that it is stop investing in a bunch of niche technologies. Don't. Your teams can't handle it anymore. They're already overloaded. If you're still looking at niche stuff, you know, don't. Uh, double down on the stuff that gets you the most. You know, it's always like. Is it good across most things so you can and use your time and energy there until this market changes, because until this plays out a bit, because I think that that's the safest bet to say, you know, something that's giving you one of those platform technologies that's giving you a broader, you know, perspective across your go to market organization and stop doing 25 other things.

Just give your team a solid foundation there and use it to run your business. And that's the best you can do, I think, as we watch this next 12 months play out.

Craig Rosenberg: There we go. Alright, that's it for us. But, I have one more question before you get off. If you could eat one thing the rest of your life, [01:01:00] but you could only eat that one thing, what would it be?

Anna Baird: Holy cow. One thing. Damn. Um. Sushi.

Craig Rosenberg: I like your style. You know what's funny? We did that randomly on the first episode, and then, A bunch of people sent me and stand by me. I didn't even remember this 'cause that movie was like, from my childhood. They asked that question and they, the kid says, cherry Pez. Like, what are you talking about?

Like, what, what are we even talking about

I said, alright. I still haven't heard, I still haven't heard, that one. Yeah, I was gonna say, wow, times have changed. Um, is it vegan? Is the cherry Pez vegan? Yeah, sushi would be a good one. You could live with that the rest of your life. Mine was a, mine was a carne asada burrito.

That

Anna Baird: Oh, yum.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I figured you would. But there's variety in there too. It's

Anna Baird: No, no, I'm uh, there's like I can eat some bad bad for you sushi[01:02:00]

Craig Rosenberg: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This was amazing. I'm actually going to ask you again to come on as we see things develop. And, um, yeah, you're the best. This was exactly what I thought. And you did bring, even with the knee injury, intellectual energy.

Anna Baird: Well,

can I give you my one last, I was, your, your inspired Gardner quote just hit me. So it's like, you know, these, all of these companies that thought they were like the new age, the most, you know, new age company here, we're, we're taking the, this segment to a whole nother level, whole new future. And I was at this car show and somebody had a sticker on their car that says, my car's a hybrid, it burns oil and gas.

And I think that's a nice analogy for some of what's happening in the market with companies who are like, yeah, I'm cool, but I'm doing all the bad things that still burn all my cash. No,

Craig Rosenberg: perfect end.

Anna Baird: no, it just hit me. I saw, I loved the sticker. It was hilarious. [01:03:00] And your, your, your little quote earlier reminded me of it.

So

Anna Baird: there we go. We'll end, we'll end there. Don't, don't be that kind of hybrid.

Craig Rosenberg: I love it. I love it.

[01:04:00]